Decarbonise Manufacturing

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Colin Browne [00:00:00]:

One of the opportunities of a world in which tariffs become more challenging means that brands and manufacturers will need to think differently about where they're locating their production and therefore it gives them an opportunity of moving to places where there is better solutions. From a climate action point of view, as we think about that within the overall sourcing decisions, I think that's certainly one of the things that I've been encouraging brands and retailers to think about. If you're going to relocate to another country, don't relocate to another country where you've got major grid and coal fired power station issues. Move to a country where, you know, there is an opportunity to kind of start working with more solar or renewable energy solutions because they're also now proving to be cheaper as well. You know, it makes a lot of sense to make those decisions and build those decisions into your sourcing matrix.

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Saif Hameed [00:00:59]:

In today's episode, we're unpacking the emerging sustainability trends in the apparel value chain. I'm thrilled to be joined by Colin Browne. Colin was previously a senior leader at Under Armour where he was at different points, chief supply chain officer, chief Operating officer, and also interim CEO and President. Colin is now CEO at Cascale, which was previously known as the Sustainable Apparel Coalition, where he leads one of the most forward thinking industry associations out there. Colin has deep industry expertise as comes across from his background and credentials. And so Colin and I are aligned that we're excited to really dig into the business value of sustainability. Colin, super excited to have you with us.

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Colin Browne [00:01:38]:

Great to be here. Thank you Pura, for hosting today.

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Saif Hameed [00:01:41]:

Our pleasure, Colin. So you're at the helm of one of the most forward thinking nonprofit alliances in the sector. I would love to dig into the journey that brought you here, but I'm going to hit pause on that for a moment and just ask if you could share a little bit more about Cascale, the members, the overarching mission and so on for any of our listeners that might not be familiar with Cascale's work.

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Colin Browne [00:02:02]:

Well, hopefully many of you know Cascale already, but it was originally founded back in 2009 as the Sustainable Apparel Coalition. I think it was Walmart and Patagonia. Rick Ridgway, who was still intimately involved with the business, kind of founded it with the idea of combating climate change and increasing social justice. And those two things have been kind of pivotal to what Cascal does and continues to do. It's probably best well known for the suite of Higg tools which developed back in, you know, the late 2010s, which is now used by, you know, somewhere between 30 and 40,000 manufacturers to track various different parts of their supply chain, specifically with regards to environmental and overall social labour kind of performance. And so, you know, it's something which we continue to evolve and certainly as I joined the organisation, we're now starting to think about how do we take that data, that analytics, that information we have to really drive meaningful impact and change. So that's why I joined and one of the reasons why I'm excited about how we can continue to move this mission forward.

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Saif Hameed [00:03:04]:

Fantastical. And what brought you to Cascale? I mean, you've had an amazing career. I'd love to maybe almost take a random walk through, through it, if you're happy, sharing some of the highlights. And then what, what and what brought you to this part of the journey?

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Colin Browne [00:03:17]:

I left Under Armour and was reading a book and one of the things which resonated me was going to go down a rabbit hole here. Here was kind of the way ancient Greeks kind of looked at the distant difference between destiny and fate. And, you know, and we tend to use those words interchangeably now, but, you know, the ancient Greeks didn't. Those two things had very different reasons. And fate was kind of what happened with you, the cards you were dealt and what you had to live with. Destiny was kind of what the world was trying to manifest itself through you. And, you know, and I was trying to think about where I am in my career and what my next move would be, and thinking about my history and my background, it just felt as if, you know, now was the right time for me to use the experiences I've had in my career to try and move the industry forward in a more meaningful way. And so it sounds a little melodramatic to say it's my destiny.

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Colin Browne [00:04:05]:

I'm not quite sure I'd go that far, but it just felt as if it was, you know, if I think about what I've done and, you know, to answer your question, I'm one of these guys who started, who crashed out of School at 16 and went to work in a shoe factory. I was a sample boy initially in a shoe factory in the UK for the first few years of my career, before fortunately getting an opportunity to join Reebok in the late 80s when Reebok was on a tear. And I moved to Asia and was involved in the sourcing side of reebok for about 10 years, moving from Korea to China in the early 90s, then the Philippines and ultimately Thailand. So I bounced around Asia in those early days, as we were kind of setting up the. This kind of sourcing model that we still have in place now and then had a little bit of a detour and went and ran a factory group. And after the Asian crisis, I went and ran a group with a colleague called Wong Tai Tun, which was manufacturing shoes for a number of different international brands. And so I had the opportunity to kind of be both, you know, both the sourcing guy and then ultimately the factory guy. So I've sat both sides of the.

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Colin Browne [00:05:09]:

Sat on both sides of the equation. And then I then ended up running a number of brands both in the UK and ultimately back in Hong Kong. Finally, I ended up spending a few years at VF Corporation, running their global sourcing organisation out of Hong Kong before ending up at Under Armour and doing as you kind of articulated earlier, running initially the sourcing organisation, supply chain operations and finally its interim CEO. But it just. So. It just felt that with all the things I've done and my engagement with other industry associations like the American Chamber in Hong Kong and the AFA here in the us, it just felt as if, hey, maybe now is the time for me to see if I could go back and fix some of those things I was responsible for earlier in my career. So how can I kind of maybe use my experience, my legitimacy, my experience, my history, to kind of maybe try and move the industry forward in a positive way? And Kaskal's is such an amazing organisation because it is perhaps one of the only places which brings together the three different constituents, meaning the manufacturers and the brands and NGOs, to kind of at least try and architect the solution. So, yeah, it's been.

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Colin Browne [00:06:21]:

Been an interesting journey, but I'm excited to be. To be on, to be where I am today.

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Saif Hameed [00:06:25]:

I'm going to reuse the fate and destiny comparison.

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Colin Browne [00:06:28]:

Oh, well, it's not mine.

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Saif Hameed [00:06:29]:

It actually reminded me of a biblical line that someone quoted to me once, which is, maybe you are come for just such a time as this.

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Colin Browne [00:06:36]:

Yeah.

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Saif Hameed [00:06:37]:

And I think that's. That's a great way for, for leaders to view their skill sets where they have a unique set of skills they've acquired, not to quote Liam Neeson now, but a unique set of skills they've acquired over a career. And it's nice, it's nice to put them to practise. Cola, just hearing you articulate your journey, it almost seems like a cross section of the industry in itself, not just in terms of the organisations where you. You held roles, not just in terms of the types of roles that you've held. But also when you kind of look at the timeline, sustainability has evolved so significantly from the days when you were starting your career at the factory level all the way through to where you are now. I wonder if you could maybe just tell us a bit about how you think the environmental side of this topic has changed over the decades.

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Colin Browne [00:07:23]:

Well, I think if. Probably when I think about how when I first kind of bumped into it in a meaningful way, to be frank with you, it was more on the social labour side as opposed to the environmental side. It was something we were concerned about, but we didn't really. I don't think we necessarily had the same understanding of climate change as well. We clearly didn't. Now we were also concerned about other things. Remember that hole in the ozone? All these other things we were concerned about at the time. But social labour became the big one.

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Colin Browne [00:07:49]:

And I think it was the White House apparel accord, I think it was called the Clinton administration, when the whole idea or the whole concept of sweatshops started to become kind of something that was prominent in the minds of consumers and something which the brands and manufacturers really needed to kind of address. And so I think that was probably when it started. But then obviously, as legislation and other things have kind of have increased as we started to understand the impact that we're having on the planet and the way in which society and communities have come together to address those issues, you know, businesses have need to step in and fill that vacuum. And I think, and I think it's interesting because I think in some respects it mirrors what's happened in society to a degree. There has. I mean, not to go down any political rabbit holes here. I think there is. I think if you look at the data, there is.

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Colin Browne [00:08:36]:

There is a. There's not as much trust in politicians as there has been historically. And I think there's been an expectation some business will step in and start to fill some of that vacuum, and consumers have an expectation around it as well. So I think businesses have kind of stepped in and started trying to move things forward. And a lot of. There's been a lot of really committed, dedicated people that have devoted much of their lives to trying to move this cause forward. But I think it's a really interesting time now, say, because we're moving from a time when it was almost evangelical to be pushing on sustainability into a time where it's becoming an operational imperative. Because if you think about it from the point of view of legislation like the CSRD and CSDD and other legislation that's going in all over the world, Australia, you know, even here in certain states in the US it's now becoming an operational imperative.

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Colin Browne [00:09:25]:

It's no longer just a voluntary proposal that you have as a business with regards to how you're going to move things forward.

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Saif Hameed [00:09:33]:

Just building on that, when I kind of look at most industries and most sort of transformational changes and certainly sustainability, I'm almost thinking that there's a category of fast movers that are really pioneering what we see as the space. And so in the sustainability area, I would say, like Patagonia is a good example of one that was out at front and obviously early on with Cascale as well. I think there's another category of often larger players that are bringing the same approaches or playbook to scale. And, you know, maybe you could kind of say like an H and M, right, Or others in that category are sort of taking some of the learnings from the Patagonias and trying to bring that to a much bigger playing field. I then find that there's this third category that is likely a reasonable share of the market, 30, 40, 50% that is not necessarily either the fast mover or even the follower cap, but is going to have to pay for the costs anyway because the industry transitions. And so I'm thinking of, let's say, a large share, probably the manufacturing value chain and apparel, where this wasn't their idea. But over the next few years, they're going to have to make lots of changes and spend the money at the same time. They're probably too late to capture brand advantage because they're not the ones pioneering the playbook.

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Saif Hameed [00:10:42]:

They're the ones kind of taking the playbook from other people and just playing by the new rules. Do you think I'm kind of on the money with my analogy? Do you think that there are those who are going to have to pay the bill but won't necessarily see much upside, and those that are moving early enough to capture consumer brand equity upside as well?

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Colin Browne [00:11:00]:

I think there will always be those brands, those businesses that see it as a business imperative and it's the bleeding edge of what they do. And then there's going to be the general populace, for one, that will be pulled along with it as well, and there will be costs involved in kind of moving forward with that. And so I think there's a little bit of that analogy playing out here. A rising tide will lift all boats. But I think. But what I would add is I think we do. It's incredibly important that sustainability, the Move towards sustainability, be a business imperative and allows people to think differently about how they make money. And I'm intrigued at the moment about how the amount of investment that's going into solar power now as opposed to fossil fuels, and I believe last year there was more money went into establishing solar power globally than there was into fossil fuels for the first time ever.

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Colin Browne [00:11:50]:

And I think that's a great example that, you know, in spite of, you know, what we think, you know, the financial imperatives will always win the day. If people can make more money out of doing it that way, then they will do it. And I think so. I think it's incredibly important we work through the mechanics of how we allow businesses to make more money out of driving towards sustainable solutions and just not just browbeat them to do it because we believe it's the right thing to do. And I think it's, I think we also have to be, we have to acknowledge the fact that a large part of the burden falls on the manufacturers and that's unfair. And we have to think about how do we kind of right that wrong because a large part of our carbon footprint sits with the manufacturing side of the business because that's where, you know, 70 odd percent of our carbon footprint resides. So I think we do have to think and brands and businesses do have to think about how they can help bridge that gap. And I think that's the work that's currently in flight.

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Saif Hameed [00:12:44]:

Now, Colin, I want to come back to the manufacturers momentarily, but if we stick with the theme of following the money. To start with, if you were to have a conversation with the CEO of an apparel company today, what are the bets that you would advise them to make from a sustainability perspective? Like what are the two or three things you would say that they have to have on their agenda or radar to be able to be a winner from the sustainability transition net?

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Colin Browne [00:13:08]:

First of all, they have to be very aware of what's coming from a legislative point of view because that sets the floor of any business, you know. And I think about my role as a board director on a couple of different businesses, you know, you have to meet legislation and the CSRD legislation that's rolling out in Europe will require brands, I think it's 150 million euros to report back on their global emissions. So you better figure it out pretty quickly. You can kind of say, well, it's not really important because I don't have to report on that in America. Well, you've got a big business in Europe, you're going to have to, so you can't bury your head in the sand and just ignore it. And that legislation is only going to get tougher as CSDD kind of comes into play. So it's a business imperative that you kind of understand it. And ultimately it will evolve from a supply chain, from a sourcing, from a procurement point of view, it will become the same way.

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Colin Browne [00:13:59]:

We'll start to think about our carbon impact in the same way we think about our margins. Ultimately a brand or a business is looking to optimise its profitability and its margins, but also over a period of time, if it's going to hit its, its science based targets, it needs to optimise its carbon consumption and we will need to be thinking about those two things simultaneously in a meaningful way. Otherwise they're just not going to hit their targets. And there will come a point in time when the markets will call out businesses and brands that are not delivering against their commitments.

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Saif Hameed [00:14:31]:

Yeah, I agree. Call it. I mean, I think that I loved your point about thinking of regulation as a floor because that's the thing that's going to apply to everyone. And then I think identifying the areas where you can differentiate on top of that is a good place to go on the regulatory topic. A number of companies that I speak with are, I guess concerned is maybe too strong a word, but curious about what that might look like over the next four years. And not just thinking about US election outcomes, but also just frankly, European trajectory as well, where I think there's a realistic possibility that Keir Starmer is going to be the only major European leader from a sort of left of centre background in several months time. Do you think that the, this sort of concern is overblown?

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Colin Browne [00:15:16]:

I think the train's already left the station. We're already on this journey and it's just a question of when's the next high tide. Is it going to be in four years, eight years or whatever. But you know, because of the election cycle. So it will continue the, it will continue to, the tide will continue to rise as this legislation continues to bite and continue to, continues to move forward. So am I concerned? Yes, of course I am concerned. When Donald Trump pulled out of the Paris Climate Accord last year, the US or a few years ago, we missed the US leadership within climate change and the way in which we're looking to action that. But what a lot of people don't realise is even during the last Republican presidency, the climate emissions went down in the us it's going to follow the money, it's not going to necessarily follow the legislation.

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Colin Browne [00:16:03]:

And as an example, you know, we may see tariffs go up on solar panels coming into the, coming into the us. The climate doesn't care where those solar panels go. It just means that China will deliver those solar panels to someone else and they will be installed in another country and it will impact climate. I think, yeah, there's a number of reasons to be concerned, but I actually still have to be reasonably optimistic that the trains already left the station. We're on this journey and I think one of the things that happened during the last time that we went through this issue is we saw an increase in social action in consumers demanding change and brands and businesses realising that they actually have to continue to lean into it.

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Saif Hameed [00:16:46]:

Colin, if we come back to the manufacturers where, you know, I think that a lot of the same principles that you've described hold true for manufacturers as well, which is this idea of sort of following the money. Where does the business value come from? I think there's an additional piece about being a really effective partner for the brand. And I was wondering if either from your time at Under Armour or from Castile's work, you're able to almost like articulate what the ingredients are for a really effective collaboration between a manufacturing partner and a brand on sustainability, like, what does that look like? What are the.

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Colin Browne [00:17:20]:

I'm going to revert, I'm going to be a little controversial and I'm going to reverse that because I think I. Because I think the issues that we face. The biggest challenge that I hear from our manufacturers is the inconsistency that they have from their, their customers, from the brands. And one of the challenges that we have is, you know, we have something like this, the audit, the audit world that we live in today, where brands require their manufacturers to be audited. I talked to one manufacturer a few weeks ago, manufacturing group, they have multiple facilities, but they had 720, whatever different audits, brands coming in and auditing them for doing certain things. I mean, it's practically impossible to manage 720 orders. I was one plant, I was in India and they estimated they had 200 audits a year. That's four audits a week from customers coming and auditing them.

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Colin Browne [00:18:13]:

Because remember, many of the manufacturers work with multiple different brands and the challenge is all the brands come in with a different set of audits and a different approach and want to do something different. And so the manufacturer is somewhat paralysed. You were adding the fact that the same manufacturer I was chatting to has multiple different science based targets. They have to hit based upon which brand is asking them to do what. I mean, they can't make progress. They're paralysed by that level of inconsistency in which the industry is helping the manufacturers move forward. And I think it's probably one of my greatest concerns, or one of the areas where I think we have the biggest opportunity is to try and get some alignment around this. And this is one of the things that Catskill is going to be pushing aggressively to do, because, you know, we can't.

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Colin Browne [00:18:59]:

I understand having been a brand and having propagated that problem to a degree, I can understand why brands want to pursue their own initiatives and their own goals and their own kind of projects. But if you're going to share a factory, as my mum would say, if you're going to share plane ice, you have to work out how you're going to work with your colleagues in that manufacturing plant. Otherwise the manufacturer is just not going to make progress. And I see a huge amount of challenges with regards to that. If the brands and the customers, the brand specifically could help align and help the manufacturers deliver the manufacturers plan, as opposed to dictating that they follow the brand plan. And at the end of the day, manufacturers know how to manufacture products, men their factories much, much better than brands know how to run their factories. It's not what they do. So we have to figure out how do we empower our manufacturers, how do we help our manufacturers to deliver against this? But more often than not, the brands get in the way of them being successful.

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Saif Hameed [00:20:02]:

And Colin, one question that I often hear played back from the manufacturers is that the narrative should shift to co investment, rather than requiring the manufacturer to make all the investment, which I think has been the expectation for the past several years. Do you see more of that sort of co investment in projects where there's collaboration in just where the money comes from?

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Colin Browne [00:20:21]:

I would love to say that yes, brands are going to write a large cheque to help manufacturers improve. I think that's unlikely and I'll be just because it's not, it's not how the brands are delivering shareholder value to their consumers and to their shareholders and their stakeholders. But I think the brands can certainly help orchestrate access to funds in a meaningful way to help manufacturers move forward in those things. And I think brands can help manufacturers to have the confidence to actually start to make these improvements by committing to doing business with a manufacturer for a longer period of time, for some kind of longer kind of timescale, so that if you're going to make that investment, you are confident that you actually have a brand or you have a business that's going to support that. Now, again, recognising there's a whole commercial world that has to be dealt with around that. But, you know, that level of commitment is incredibly important and I do think, you know, I haven't spent so much of my time in supply chain. There's so much opportunity in supply chain efficiencies that would allow manufacturers and the brands and how they work together to optimise the operating model, to allow the manufacturers to invest more at this, at this moment in time. The misalignment between the two drives a huge level of inefficiency and there's clearly opportunities for us to unlock capital within that inefficiency for the manufacturers to think about how do they plough that back into making meaningful change? But they're only going to do that if they get the commitment from the brands.

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Saif Hameed [00:21:50]:

Yeah, I agree. Having grown up in Pakistan and as I mentioned, when we were just getting acquainted, having played a role in bringing textile companies in Pakistan to the table, what I found interesting is that a lot of the reason for investing in renewable energy systems is just over reliance on a faulty grid and trying to move away from grid power that is unreliable, increasingly expensive, towards something that is just more consistent and that has powered a lot of the renewable energy transition for textile manufacturing in Pakistan.

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Colin Browne [00:22:20]:

And Pakistan's made some really good progress in that area.

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Saif Hameed [00:22:23]:

Yeah, no, totally agree. By the anecdotally, we're running a few different supply chain programmes across large consumer businesses and what we're finding is that the brands that we work with are actually quite ready to do volume commitments. And so the idea is we can do a longer term contract with the supplier, we can do more volume transfer to one supplier or a few suppliers. We are less ready to give more margin basically, or give investment, but actually the incentive of longer duration contracts and more volume can actually be more meaningful at a certain scale.

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Colin Browne [00:22:59]:

When I started in this industry, we operated more from always chasing margins, always chasing the lowest fob. And I think the. And as a consequence to that, we would move product from country to country, a drop of a hat, just so we could get a little bit lower fob and maximise our margins. I think margins are still incredibly important, but I would propose to you the value now is in the margin at the end of the season when you finish your as a brand. How do you optimise your margin at the end of the season? Not how do you optimise your land, the margin from your brand, your manufacturer. Because if you, if you think about even today, you know, we have good brands within our industry are sitting on 100 days worth of inventory. That's three months worth of inventory. Saif, I'm pretty sure you don't have three months worth of breakfast cereal in your kitchen cabinet.

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Colin Browne [00:23:46]:

You just don't. The reason why we do that is because we built this model to always chase the lowest fob. And at the end of the season brands are having to send to liquidation anywhere between, I don't know, 3 and 10% of their product, which again is over production, which we don't need, which is clogging up the, clogging up supply chains and driving up carbon emissions. So if we could work through the mechanics of how we optimise that, there's huge opportunities there, enormous opportunities in technology, AI, machine learning and there's so many different areas we can think about. How do we reduce that level of inventory and how do we actually make the whole process much more efficient? And we will do that by working with less suppliers, making longer term commitments, working through how do we better manage inventories, you know, those, there's huge opportunities just to get that right and that will free up capital to invest and it will also basically reduce the overproduction that we have in our industry. So it's a huge amount of work to do for sure.

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Saif Hameed [00:24:40]:

Colin, one of the things that you just mentioned is the transition of manufacturing from one location to another. And you know, we expect this will become maybe a bit less frequent as you have these longer term commitments. But one question that I've always, I've increasingly been curious about is whether the sustainability transition is going to fundamentally redesign trade flows or the current pattern of trade flows as supply moves to certain locations that are easier to decarbonize potentially. And that might mean that data is easier, grid transition is easier. There's just a whole host of enablers. Do you see that happening? I mean, the apparel value chain is probably one of the densest transitions in the world. And by that I mean that a large share of the value chain knows what they need to do to transition and is relatively aligned on direction of travel versus most other industries. So if this realignment of locations happens, apparel is probably where it's going to happen first.

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Saif Hameed [00:25:37]:

Do you think that's going to play out?

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Colin Browne [00:25:40]:

I think it will, but it's going to be a number of years before we see that really manifest itself. But I think we will. I think one of the opportunities of a World in which tariffs become more challenging means that brands and manufacturers, brands and potentially manufacturers will need to think differently about where they're locating their production and therefore it gives them an opportunity of moving to places where there are, where there is better solutions from a, from a climate action point of view. So I think as we think about that within the overall sourcing decisions, I think that's certainly one of the things that I've been encouraging brands and retailers to think about. If you're going to relocate to another country, don't relocate to another country where you know you've got major grid and coal fired power station issues. Move to a country where you know there is an opportunity to kind of start working with, with more solar or renewable energy solutions because they're also now proving to be cheaper as well. So, you know, it makes a lot of sense to make those decisions and build those decisions into your sourcing matrix. And I think increasingly businesses and brands are starting to do that.

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Saif Hameed [00:26:46]:

Colin, thank you so much. I just want to kind of, as we're sort of drawing to a close, I just want to summarise a few of the interesting territories we've covered. I loved how we started with the line from the Greeks, which is fate is the cards you're dealt with, destiny is what is manifesting through you and the two are different. I really loved following your journey through so many different parts of the apparel industry, whether it's in roles or different sorts of companies, geographies timeline to where you are today. I think we share a lot in terms of our value of focusing on the money to enable the sustainability transition and encouraging businesses to really prioritise value creation. I really liked your flipping the switch on the brand manufacturer collaboration and how this really needs to be a true partnership and there are a range of levers that both sides can make available to enable that. And then I also just liked how we're sort of bringing together this sort of, this geopolitical backdrop as well, where we say, look, actually the train has left the station, what is happening is going to happen. You can either be one of the parties that is just sort of paying the bill and paying the cost and just like keeping your head above water, not to mix in another metaphor, or you can be one of those that is capturing value and actually kind of leaning forward and being a net winner from the transition.

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Saif Hameed [00:28:02]:

Maybe just to round off. Colin, if you had to give one piece of advice to our listeners, and our listeners are sustainability professionals in consumer organisations around the world, what is the piece of advice that you would give.

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Colin Browne [00:28:14]:

Don't get sidetracked by all the noise. We are making progress. You know, we're not making as progress as, as much progress as we'd like to, but we are making progr. I'm, I'm more optimistic now than when I joined Cascal six months ago because we know how to, we genuinely know how to do this. We, we know how to decarbonize the grid, we know how to stand up sustainable on site solutions. We know how to build more efficient factories. We know, we know, we know. We, we kind of, we know what needs to happen.

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Colin Browne [00:28:44]:

The question isn't can we do it? We, we can do it and we are doing it. We're not making as, as quick a progress as we need to, but we are doing it. So don't lose hope. The question is, are we doing it quickly enough? And I always come back to it. Do we have the courage, the capacity and the commitment to kind of get over the line? And you know, my sense is we do and it's happening.

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Saif Hameed [00:29:06]:

That's a fantastic note to end on. Colin, thank you so much for taking time out to speak with us. We've really enjoyed this and looking forward to hopefully getting to know you better over the coming years. And you know, maybe we do a part two on this in, in a couple of years time and just see how, whether we've managed to pick up speed.

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Colin Browne [00:29:21]:

That'd be great. Thank you. Lovely to spend time with you. Be well.

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