Building the World’s Largest Corporate Coral Reef Restoration Program

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David Smith [00:00:00]:

We also wanted to go beyond just the basic metrics, which might be easier to report and communicate, but not necessarily too meaningful. For example, how many corals have we put out into the ocean? What area are we using? Those are quite straightforward for us to measure. We take that data, obviously. But what our wider science team came up is we really need to look at ecological function. How is the reef? Are we being able to rebuild an ecosystem that functions like a native reef? That's what we're really aiming for, above and beyond everything else. And that might mean we need a certain biomass of a certain type of fish that functions like herbivores that feed on algae. It might be the way nutrients go through a reef. The more difficult thing to try and assess is what's the positive impact on the ocean and the status of reefs more generally? It's nearly an insurmountable problem.

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David Smith [00:00:50]:

The ocean is huge. So what we decided to do was to focus on doing the restoration very well, at a scale that's relevant to the communities in which we work, and then empower as many people as possible to do the same.

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Saif Hameed [00:01:17]:

I'm super excited about the episode today. We normally spend a lot of time on this show talking about sustainability in the context of human food, but we need to do justice to cat food as well. And so we're super excited to start talking about the Sheba Hope Grows programme. This is one of the most ambitious corporate-led coral restoration initiatives worldwide. We like coral reefs. We like also talking about Mars, because we find that Mars has one of the most sophisticated sustainability programmes out there. And so we're excited to have two members of the team with us, two of the driving forces behind the initiative. Professor David Smith, Chief Marine Scientist, Mars Inc, and Senior Director, Mars Sustainable Solutions and Mindy Barry, Global Vice President of SHEBA®.

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Saif Hameed [00:02:01]:

We're going to explore what successful collaborations look like in business and we're going to look at that through the Sheba Hope Grows programme. Mindy, David, super excited to have you both with us.

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Mindy Barry [00:02:11]:

Excited to be here?

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David Smith [00:02:13]:

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks very much for the opportunity.

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Saif Hameed [00:02:15]:

Super excited to have you. Welcome to the show. I would love to start with a bit of an opening question to you both, actually, which is why this programme, obviously there are many initiatives that Mars could have backed, many initiatives that might have been relevant, relevant to Sheba. Why do you think of this particular initiative?

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David Smith [00:02:34]:

You know, from my perspective, and particularly my background as an academic in marine scientists, as in marine scientists, coral reefs are one of the most important ecosystems on the planet. They hold a quarter of all marine life and we know they're fundamental for the health of the ocean. Without coral reefs, then we would really have to question how oceans are going to function and provide all the services they do to humanity. The air that we breathe, much of the food that we eat. And of course, there are about a billion people who depend on coral reefs directly for their livelihoods. So they're really important biologically and they're really important socially and economically. Unfortunately, like many other ecosystems on the planet, coral reefs are really threatened and on the edge of extinction.

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David Smith [00:03:23]:

There's many studies, as you can imagine, around the world sort of documenting their decline, but the statistics that most people go to, that in the next two decades we might lose coral reefs from the face of the planet. So this is a very urgent problem dealing with a very important ecosystem. And Mars, with its global reach, has the power and the opportunity to do something about it. So, consequently, we're very fortunate enough to be leading on a project that really has the potential to make a big impact in the world. And it's really needed. It's urgently needed.

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Saif Hameed [00:03:56]:

Thank you so much, David. Mindy, I'd love to also get your perspective on how this really builds and reinforces the brand? 

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Mindy Barry [00:04:17]:

I think it's worth noting, first of all, as a brand builder. I mean, it's all about storytelling. I love storytelling and I think brands have the opportunity to use our global platforms to create good. And so it's an honour to be able to, as a brand, be telling. And so I think bringing a brand to the work that's being done and being able to give it a bigger stage and engage more people emotionally on what needs to be done, that's. That's what we're looking to do. So Sheba as a brand is all about the extraordinary. It was a brand started in the foundation of extraordinary food and feeding experiences for cats and cat parents, and over time, being able to really stretch the breadth of what extraordinary means and tell the extraordinary need for action, but also the extraordinary stories of the people that are on the front lines of restoring coral reefs. 

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Saif Hameed [00:05:32]:

And Mindy would love to hear a bit more about the programme as well. Like, could you give us a quick introduction to what's happening, what's exciting, what Mars is doing to support it.

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Mindy Barry [00:05:44]:

So since 2021, the Sheba brand has been supporting one of the world's largest coral reef restoration programmes in the world, which is led by Mars Sustainable Solutions and David and the team. It's something that is an ongoing, always on programme. As we'll talk about more, it really is listening and partnering with communities, with the scientific community and collectively looking to show how through that type of partnership we can really create impact. We're entering a new phase, I guess, of the Sheba Hope Grows programme, which is really how do we take it and be able to tell those stories more deeply through the launch of the Reef Builders documentary. It's this very powerful first person story of hope and it's following those coastal communities on the front line from Indonesia and Kenya, Hawaii and Australia, as they're, as they're racing against time to restore those disappearing coral reefs which are essential for their food and livelihoods and coastal protection. And the hope is by using our global platform as a brand and by telling these people stories, which inherently is what creates that emotional connection and better ignites people to care that we can ultimately create hope and create action on a broader scale because the world needs it.

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Saif Hameed [00:07:33]:

Thank you so much, Mindy. David, would love to hear a bit from you about how this sort of intervention moves restoration forward. And before we kind of kicked off this episode, we talked a little bit about your background and you've really come at the topic through deep academic research on ground experience before you kind of came into the corporate space. When you kind of look at, you know, it's a really interesting role that you have actually within a corporate setting. And I think it suggests the unique power that a large global, well known brand has to move these sorts of issues forward. Could you tell us a little bit more about what's happening in terms of the actual science and also what you think Mars brings to the table that might not have been achieved without the support of a corporation such as Mars and a brand such as Shiba.

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David Smith [00:08:22]:

As you correctly said, you know, I spent the best part of my career documenting reef loss around the world and that's been, that's been really hard to see. And I think that story will be the same across most coral reef biologists over, over a couple of decades of writing numerous publications about the loss of ecosystems and the impact. And then an opportunity arises to join a team and a brand and a corporation that has the resources and the skill sets, multiple skill sets, to try and turn the tide really on reef loss. So I think it's a great privilege for me to be where I am now. It's in a very unusual position for me to be in after so long at the coalface, if you like. In terms of conservation and restoration, what Mars has done, which I think is probably unique in the field, you know, it's been involved with this restoration programme for a long time. Mars has been involved in restoration now for over 15 years or so. And during that time they've had the opportunity to be able to develop a set of procedures that would enable local communities in different environmental settings around the world to be empowered to rebuild and protect their own reefs.

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David Smith [00:09:37]:

And that's really the sort of key point of difference. I think that the programme, which aims to enable communities around the world, not just scientists or conservationists or corporates, but communities around the world, to rebuild and restore their own ecosystems at a scale that is relevant to their livelihoods. So that's where the project comes in. In one sense, that community feeling and that long term investment within the restoration, and also not talking about it until a procedure and a set of processes have been fully developed, which is also quite unique. The second thing I would say, and what I found quite unique, was working with different types of people from different types of backgrounds, with different types of expertise and experiences, listening, talking in, partnering with those individuals and saying, look, this is our problem, this is where we need to be. Now, what is the most effective and efficient way of delivering it? So we're talking to engineers, we're talking to marketeers, we're talking to finance experts and bringing all our expertise together to produce an effort that is streamlined, it's effective, it sticks to the ethics of doing restoration in a meaningful way, but at a level that is accessible to local communities, but also needs to be efficient and scalable. Bringing all of that skill set to bear to develop a programme where others can join and be involved means that we're now at a rate of restoration, which is pretty impressive. We've got more to do.

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David Smith [00:11:10]:

There's always fine tuning, there's always adaptation that we need to put in place to make sure that we're effective. But that partnership and those skills from different disciplines, I think is quite unique. And also the business sense, is this the most effective way of delivering the supply chain thinking? Some of the things that conservationists don't always think about, to be honest. So that really allows us to produce a scale that's pretty, pretty unique.

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Saif Hameed [00:11:33]:

I've had the fun privilege of working across non profits and government and private sectors in a sustainability context. One of the things that I find really interesting about the language you're using is the language of business. You're talking about engaging with engineers, marketeers, finance experts, finding ways to do this efficiently, to scale it. This is the kind of language that I would expect from something like a digital transformation in a business or a, you know, big cost transformation, or just any other big business challenge. And I think it's really exciting that you're viewing this the same way. One thing that I wanted to go a little deeper on is you talked about the multiple skill sets that Mars has available internally to support with getting programmes like this going. Could you tell us a bit more about that? I'm directing this question to you rather than to Mindy, for the reason that I kind of feel like you're almost like a cuckoo in the nest. You're a conservationist in the corporate world, looking around and finding all these corporate tools and skills. And I think it could be a really interesting perspective to say, well, what are those corporate skills that are suddenly useful for you to do your life's work better? And what is it that you would encourage other sustainability teams or other conservationists in other corporations to try and look for. Could you give us a bit more colour on that?

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David Smith [00:12:57]:

So well said. And I think of myself as a kid in a candy store at times, you know, being able to tap into all these expertise and experiences around it. I  have to pinch myself at times and think, how have I ended up in the situation I'm in? And look at the resources, human resources I have around me, the things that I hadn't had access to before, I didn't even know they were an essential component of an effective global programme. So some of the terms that I've used were brand new to me, I had no ROI and efficiencies. But they're really, really key if you need to drive the scale that we need to drive. If we had to realise the change that we need to change in just two decades. So it's absolutely essential.

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David Smith [00:13:39]:

When we first started out thinking, right, we have a restoration procedure, how do we take it to the next level? And I'm talking about two, three times increases in orders of magnitude to where we were. Look around us, who can bring something to the game? So, first of all, for example, it was individuals who are on the production line, process engineers, thinking about, well, actually, you're doing a restoration project as a conservationist. You do everything from the site selection to the social work to the community work, to the building of the Reef Stars, which are the hero of our particular technique, all the way through to the build of the restoration, the monitoring, the evaluation and the communication. And what the process engineer who came up with the approach, he actually divided up into 10 or 11 different steps, which is a different way of thinking about it, and trained members of the community to become very effective and efficient at delivering those specific tasks. Thinking about the supply chain as well, where were they going to get materials from? Was that the most effective way? Is this the best place to deliver it? So the overall aspects of the programme were looked at from a very different perspective, from somebody who came from a background and doing everything, and doing everything okay, but not fantastic. And of course, by stringing those things together, you become really efficient and effective. The second part of it, the thing which really has put it to the next level, I think, is telling the story, you know, getting the message out to the wider community.

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David Smith [00:15:15]:

Again, I think you become quite insulated as conservationists when you're living it 24/7, that you think everyone knows what the importance of coral reefs are. Everyone should know that ocean health is really key, but why should they not always people's lives or part of people's lives? And how can we better communicate what we do to make everyone have an invested interest in sitting up and taking notice and also mobilising parts of that community to be part of the solution rather than just sort of, well, that's another problem that someone else is going to deal with. So communication is key and I think the engineering process, supply chain thinking are the real good examples of where we have achieved scale and efficiency of the project delivery.

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Saif Hameed [00:16:04]:

Super exciting, David. And lots to dig into there as well. Mindy. One of the things that David talked about is this aspect of bringing together all the different stakeholders. You've also touched on the human aspects of the story and actually tried to involve the local communities. I'm sure that was complicated. I'm sure there were a lot of different people to bring to the table. Could you tell us a little bit about just the partnership building aspect of this journey and how did it all come together? 

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Mindy Barry [00:16:44]:

Anytime you're trying to help move forward a cause, you need to understand first by talking with the community and understanding their needs. Because otherwise, what I see is oftentimes the risk is within our bubble. We think we have the solution, we know what we want to do and we start implementing and putting a lot of plans into place and spending a lot of money and we may not actually be solving the right problem and we may, we may inadvertently not be creating the impact that the intended. And so I think first, what I like so well about the Sheba Hope Grows programme and the broader work that the MS S team does is the challenges for coral reef restoration. They vary. Every, every location has different challenges that they're uniquely facing as a community and based on their ecosystem. And so if the MSS team were to just go in and say, here's the solve, go do it in this exact way, we wouldn't actually be seeing the types of results that we are, but it's actually by talking with them, by understanding that, by then thinking about how might you apply some of these different tools in the toolbox, that's ultimately where we're able to start to get solutions. And then the other piece that really stands out to me with this programme in particular is it also creates that sense of ownership.

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Mindy Barry [00:18:03]:

It is truly communities feeling a sense of ownership for repairing and restoring the ecosystems upon which they depend. And that's the only way it'll really have the long standing impact that we're looking for as well. So those are some of the components that I think are critical to the success that we have been able to see. 

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Saif Hameed [00:18:58]:

Mindy, this is fascinating and I want to double down on something here. Which is one of the reasons why we are always fascinated by Mars on this show, is because we find that the Mars approach to sustainability tends to deliver better results, but also tends to have a few things in common across different programmes that Mars runs in a sustainability context. What I think those three elements are is I think you have a readiness for resource intensity, you have a readiness for longevity and you have a readiness to dive into detail. I see this here where everything that you and David are telling me about speaks to Mars. Bringing a lot of resources to the table, internal resources, external resources, getting all the right levers in place, skill sets, et cetera. There's longevity here for sure. This is a long term challenge. You guys are a long way in, there's a long way to go.

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Saif Hameed [00:19:54]:

And there's also this readiness to dive into the details and really understand something in super granularity. And as both of you know, anything involving the ocean is ridiculously complex with ridiculous kinds of butterfly effects all over the place as well. And I noticed the same sort of three things. This resource intensity, longevity, detail in, for example, Mars approach to carbon emissions reduction or other challenges. Mindy, what do you think it is that is different about how Mars approaches sustainability in a brand context that makes Mars so ready to kind of do this time and time again? 

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Mindy Barry [00:20:50]:

Yes, and i f I ladder it up, there's a lot of debate over the role of purpose and brands and I think oftentimes where it's gotten a bad rap, if you will, is because there isn't either that understanding of what's actually needed or there isn't the long term accountability or there aren't the results. And so that's something, if I think of what's critical to the success, the reframe, I always look at it as authenticity, action and accountability. If you have those three pillars, you can create real impact. And if you don't, if any one of those three legs of the stool, if you will, are missing. I think things fall flat and so being able to share how this fits into the broader way in which we want to build the brand, engage consumers and ultimately create that equity over time, that gives us the foundation for that long term commitment and then action.

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Mindy Barry [00:22:10]:

People are tired of words, they want to see results, they want to see what are you actually doing, what are the results of that. And then the last piece is that accountability. So the transparency, building trust and the action of tracking. And David talked quite a bit about the work that's being done to actually make sure we're quantifying the impact, that we're understanding it both through the lens of coral reef restoration and ocean health, but also through the lens of demonstrating that it is creating value for the brand and the business. And I think it's when you can unlock both of those that the true magic happens.

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Saif Hameed [00:22:46]:

Thanks, Mindy. David, I'd love to go on to quantification and impact measurement and see that through the lens of really, how did you decide what it is that you should be measuring and quantifying? Like, how did you define what the right metric is, which is not always easy. How did you figure out what the right goal is or target or like, what does good look like for the programme? And then also, just how is it going so far?

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David Smith [00:23:12]:

There's different ways to answer that question. As an ecologist, then I think we have a fair understanding of what an ecological response looks like and what metrics we should use. So we never really put in terms of ecological metrics. We never really put in terms of this is what good looks like. We want to look at the trajectory of where, making sure that we're making a positive change. So in terms of biology, we also wanted to go beyond just the basic metrics, which might be easier to report and communicate, but not necessarily too meaningful. For example, how many corals have we put out into the ocean? What area are we using? Those are quite straightforward for us to measure. We take that data, obviously.

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David Smith [00:23:57]:

But what our wider science team come up with, and there's about 40 scientists involved with the project, probably from around 30 different research, 28 different research institutes, is we really need to look at ecological function, how is the reef? Are we able to rebuild an ecosystem that functions like a native reef? That's what we're really aiming for above and beyond everything else. And that might mean we need a certain biomass of a certain type of fish to function like herbivores that feed on algae. It might be the way nutrients go through a reef, it might be how quick the reef is building. There are numerous different metrics that we use for functionality and we have a team of scientists focused specifically, independent of us, but having access to our science to deliver those sorts of questions. So in that sense we have it covered. The more difficult thing to try and assess is what's the positive impact on the ocean and the status of reefs more generally. And this becomes difficult because if you look at the problem and where you need to be, it's nearly an insurmountable problem.

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David Smith [00:25:01]:

The ocean is huge, the problem is huge. And we don't want to get to a situation where we want to say we can recover all of the world's oceans. It's just not possible. So what we decided to do was to focus on doing the restoration very well, at a scale that's relevant to the communities in which we work, and then empower as many people as possible to do the same. So a metric of success for our project is to also take into consideration the ripple effect of what we do. How many people now are capable of delivering the restoration the same way that we did? And remember, our restoration is focused on the Reed Star, which I think I mentioned already. But we also train different communities in a variety of different restoration techniques and provide that community with the skill set to be able to identify off that menu what they should use for their particular location.

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David Smith [00:25:56]:

So metrics of success for us is to say we're empowering thousands of communities around the world to be able to go and rebuild and protect, restore their own coral reefs. I think that's probably more powerful in a sense. And we measure that very carefully. We measure well, we have one training programme. How many people do we teach? How much reef do they go and build? How much reef do the other people who learn of those people build? What's the ripple effect in the other system to assess that? 

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Saif Hameed [00:26:35]:

And David, how would you say it's going versus where you had expected to be by now?

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David Smith [00:26:40]:

Well, I suppose my expectations probably weren't high because it's a big problem and we have short periods of time. I think the project. Well, I know the project's going extremely well because people, we are inundated by opportunities and challenges to restore and teach other people to restore. You know, we're not teaching in the classroom here. We're. We're at the coal face, trying to work with communities. And the pickup of restoration, you know, using the appropriate techniques has been astounding. You know, we're up to several.

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David Smith [00:27:19]:

Well, a couple of hundred people now that we've trained are going on to restore. We're not shy of opportunities to do more. I think we need to do more, we need to do much more. And there's some challenges or opportunities by looking at things like how can we be more ecologically effective? There's always scientific questions to ask, but we have a team of scientists working on these questions. So I think we're doing about an order of magnitude better than I thought we would be in this phase, but I'd like to be two orders of magnitude further down the line in the next five years. But that's just a personal target.

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Saif Hameed [00:27:53]:

I love it.

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David Smith [00:27:53]:

I love it. David.

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Saif Hameed [00:27:54]:

Thank you. Mindy, I love to get a similar take from you, but maybe more on the business impact side . Most of our listeners on this show are sustainability professionals in food and beverage companies or consumer goods companies, and they are trying to get similar programmes off the ground and they are always having to make the case to the finance team, to other stakeholders for why these programmes make business sense. And so whether it's in qualitative terms around relationships with retailers and other business partners, or quantitative terms, if those are available, could you give us some sense of how this makes good business sense for Shiba and just how you kind of convey that to your internal stakeholders?

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Mindy Barry [00:28:41]:

I think first and foremost, it goes back to what I previously shared is I do truly believe the future belongs to businesses that create value for both people and the planet. And in the case of the Sheba Hope Grows programme, we've been able to show that to be the case. So I think first of all is starting with making sure you're choosing the right platform or programme and that it is designed in a way that makes sense for either the business or the brand. So I talked about authenticity, action and accountability, that that's something that is critically important. So if you are a marketer or brand builder, on the demand side of the business, making sure that you're choosing something that aligns with where you're wanting to take the business or the brand, because that's the starting point and that will future proof the investment. Then I think once you've done that, you have the permission to go tell the stories and through doing that, create the value. To me, this is something retailers have on their mind.

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Mindy Barry [00:29:45]:

It's something we can bring to them. And ultimately consumers want to feel great about the products they buy. And to me, I think the magic is when you can be giving them not just a great product, but a great product that they can also feel great about buying. That's where the magic to me happens. And we have seen that in the ROI of the programmes that we do. So David was throwing out the word roi. That's because we're constantly partnering and looking at that because it is important. You know, we aren't a nonprofit, we are a business.

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Mindy Barry [00:30:18]:

And what we want to prove is that doing good business can be good for business.

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Saif Hameed [00:30:24]:

Thank you so much, Mindy, last question. Again, an open one to you both. We always ask our guests if they could share one piece of advice for sustainability professionals operating in other businesses, what would that be? And I'd like to give a bit of a spin on it and maybe say, Mindy, a lot of sustainability professionals interface with marketing frequently, all the time. And I think their ability to get marketing excited is one step towards being able to make the case for great roi. Because often sustainability teams are their own kind of team and they need to get either sales or marketing or some other part of the business excited that is maybe a bit more proximate to traditional ROI capture and measurement. So, Mindy, I'd love to get from you maybe just some advice to sustainability teams on how to work best with marketing and help get you guys excited to be part of this sort of journey. And then, David, to give you a bit of a heads up, I would love to get, you know, from you, maybe just words of wisdom to sustainability professionals on how to think through setting up ecological programmes in a way that can be robust in a business context, can deliver business value, can get, get done, cannot be kind of abstract pilots that don't go anywhere, but can be something that is meaningful in scales.

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Mindy Barry [00:31:44]:

Three things came to my mind when you asked that question and I love the question. I think it's insights. So knowing the consumer, because that's what we as marketers or brand builders are obsessed with I think the other one is how to Make It Simple. And the last piece would be partnership and collaboration. So if I start with insights, a core part of how we do business. In fact, even last year, Mars completed the world's largest ever pet parent study. So we're, we're obsessed with this and I think being able to bring those insights to the business, to the demand side of the business, if this is why sustainability matters, this is, is the role it could play that opens the door for the conversation. I think the next piece is Understanding and Keeping It Simple.

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Mindy Barry [00:32:41]:

The reality is a lot of folks on the demand side of the business and in marketing, sustainability is a scary space, it's not well understood. And so when it gets too scientific, it can break down that conversation. And so the more it can be kept at a simple and ideally a personal level, that will help with understanding what's trying to be achieved and why it matters. Answering that. So what of it all? And then that third piece, the partnership collaboration, we've talked a lot about that in this time together, but that is really important to make sure that whatever is that final programme is done in a way that feels authentic to the brand and that is messaged in a way that doesn't just feel like sustainability for sustainability sake. So I think if you're trying to create value from it, it needs to feel like it's being done in a way that is creating mutual value across the ecosystem. 

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Saif Hameed [00:34:03]:

Thank you so much, Mindy. David, you're up.

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David Smith [00:34:06]:

Yeah, thanks for that. You know, when you want to ask. Get asked a question like that. So if I kind of go back into academia and think about it. Actually I'd rather provide advice to academics really than I would to sustainability professionals, but. But I'll maybe try and do both in a sense of. This is broader speaking in terms of the issues of sustainability and some of the projects that need to be done don't just jump on what's on trend. There's a lot of problems that need to be solved out there, but you do see these peaks and troughs in interest in specific subjects, and I don't think we need to do that.

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David Smith [00:34:42]:

So I think very carefully about what projects you're going after. The second thing is to make sure that any projects that are being identified are solutions orientated, that you're trying to find a solution at the end of the day and that the science builds into that. In order for that to happen, then you need to have very open, honest, roll up the sleeves conversations around a roundtable, not just teams, meetings or emails. You need to be face to face and you need to talk about what the major issues are and what is achievable, you know, surprisingly, to most academics. I think most academics are entrepreneurial in their approach. They have to seek grant funding and everything else. And I would put a shout out to my academic colleagues to be brave and to step foot into the corporate room. It's not too scary.

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David Smith [00:35:30]:

 You talk about what's possible, what's relevant, and both sides need to understand what victory looks like from their perspective. And that magic, when it comes together and you arrive at that potential solution, is just wonderful. 

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Saif Hameed [00:36:08]:

Thank you, David. I think words like victory and magic are great words for us to wrap up on. So I just wanted to say a big thank you to both you and Mindy for joining us. It's been super exciting having you on the show and thanks for your words of wisdom to sustainability professionals out there.

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David Smith [00:36:25]:

Thank you very much.

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Mindy Barry [00:36:26]:

Thank you.

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