Data, Farmers, and Product Innovation: Maia Reed on Scope 3

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Transcript

Maia Reed [00:00:00]:

We've really been trying to figure out how to navigate that grey space at Mars. And there's a couple ways that we do that. The first, I think is to continue staying tapped in to external networks. We get to essentially have a space with other industry peers where we noodle through these really complex issues and create, when we can, an aligned perspective on how to tackle some of these gaps where guidance hasn't yet covered. Another way is by creating what at Mars we call internal archetypes, instructions and criteria about what acceptable data looks like when it comes to climate projects. So on the agricultural side we have a farm tool archetype which helps to define, you know, what do we need to understand about the methodology of a project calculator in order for those project outputs to be acceptable for us to ingest and understand that it's high quality data with integrity that meets our criteria. Another way is essentially just by creating data templates and pre aligning as much as we can with our different project partners on what we need and why we need it.

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Saif Hameed [00:01:13]:

Our focus today is managing Scope three emissions and agricultural supply chains. We're going to talk about all the challenges and opportunities that come with that and there are many. We're super excited to be joined by Maia Reed, Global climate data lead at Mars Petcare. We're excited for multiple reasons. One is that Mars is a super exciting business when it comes to sustainability. We'll dig into that a bit more and also Maia is a real expert in this field. Maia's role is also really interesting. We're going to dig into that a bit and we're going to really take apart some thinking around managing carbon reductions, streamlining carbon accounting and this super interesting business.

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Saif Hameed [00:01:51]:

Maia, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us.

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Maia Reed [00:01:53]:

Thanks for having me. Saif.

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Saif Hameed [00:01:54]:

Brilliant. Maia would love to maybe just start off with understanding what your role looks like, how it dovetails with all the other cool stuff that Mars is doing. I know it's in the pet care part specifically.

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Maia Reed [00:02:06]:

Yeah, for sure. So Mars CPG Company, a large company that has three primary divisions, so most people know us for the candy that we make. The Mars Snacking division, formerly our Mars Wrigley division, we also have a division, Mars Food, and then we have Mars petcare, which is equal in size to Mars Snacking. And we make a variety of different pet nutrition and pet care products as well as provide services through our Mars Veterinary Health division. So within the pet care business, I serve as our global climate data lead and my role is really to manage most of the carbon accounting relation to our climate strategy and the actions that we're taking to reduce our carbon footprint. So I'm in charge of our impact factor library or our emissions factors for all of our different materials, as well as providing guidance on the different projects we implement mostly around those raw materials on farm, so that we can mitigate our carbon footprint, implement regenerative practises and really lower the carbon intensity of our different products. I sit on the Global Climate and Sustainable Sourcing team. So again, scope is mostly raw materials with that team, but we are under the procurement function within Mars, which we call the commercial function, and I think that's really important.

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Maia Reed [00:03:21]:

As a cpg, we are primarily an agricultural business, so the products that we buy are the biggest contributor to our carbon footprint. So having our climate team sit within that procurement function really allows us to have that visibility and engagement with those teams that are sourcing our materials. So it can be really smart about how we execute that strategy. What we are supported by at the corporate level is going to be our corporate Healthy Planet team. So Healthy Planet is one of our biggest pillars in our sustainable new generation plan. And so our corporate Healthy Planet team helps to support and give guidance to all of those different Mars segments, Mars Food, Mars Pet Care and Mars Snacking, and assist us with how we coordinate in executing our goals so we can reach our net zero targets by 2050.

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Saif Hameed [00:04:09]:

Maia, before we get into the meat of the questions, we're big fans of Mars on this show and we reference Mars a lot. There are a few things that I've noticed about Mars when it comes to sustainability. One is that the programme is very well thought through, very well structured, and I also notice as an observer, when it comes to communication of the programme and results, Mars manages to toe the line between singing about stuff that they've actually done, but also being very, very cautious when it comes to the stuff that hasn't played out and just actually being transparent on that and sharing what hasn't worked as well. And I think that overall, Mars has managed to kind of keep momentum going and keep progress happening in a way that many other companies have struggled to do. The other thing that I notice is Mars sustainability alumni tend to kind of get exported into other businesses. I know a number of them personally and they always build good sustainability functions around them in the new businesses that they go to. Whether it's about the data systems or the people, the teams, it does seem like Mars is a source of sustainability best practise. In the same way that I think there are some other companies on the European side that do that.

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Saif Hameed [00:05:18]:

Well, given that you've been in other businesses before, including Danone, and you've probably seen a wide set of the food and beverage sustainability space, what is it that you think Mars manages to do well, that creates this kind of culture such that it does well at Mars and it also gets exported nicely to other businesses?

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Maia Reed [00:05:37]:

Yeah, it's a great question and I will say it was really a market difference coming over to Mars and seeing how they operate. There's a level of sophistication here that I really haven't seen in other CPGs or other similar companies. The main thing I will attribute that to, to be frank, is the fact that it is a privately held business. The Mars family still owns and has always owned the Mars business. And that gives us the freedom, which is one of our five principles that we operate under, to really pursue the things that are important to us and to use our profits in a way that we think will sustain the business for years to come. So that's part of what's behind our sustainable and a generation plan. Our sustainability plan isn't just a annual report that we put out for our shareholders and says, look at the good things we're doing. Tick, tick, tick.

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Maia Reed [00:06:21]:

It's really, if anything, more of an internal plan and that has a 25 year time frame. Most companies, as you know, do not operate on a 25 year time frame. But we have the luxury of being a privately held business to be able to think in terms of generations and make sure that the investments that we're making today are really going to create the stability and build the business that we need in the future. So really, by putting its money where its mouth is, I think Mars is able to unlock so much capability and sustainability. And the second thing which I did mention briefly is the digitization. Mars understands that sustainability needs to get out of Excel spreadsheets and needs to start to become integrated into the digital core of the business. So there are huge investments and long term plans for Mars to really transform its digital systems in order to integrate sustainability, in order to integrate carbon considerations, costs of carbon, so that we're looking at that as a risk factor and a decision making factor in everything we do.

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Saif Hameed [00:07:15]:

You mentioned the sort of choice of projects and how you looked for using data to inform which projects you choose to drive. Could you tell us a bit more about your key considerations when you're setting up a reduction or removal project? What makes for a good project? What makes for a project that maybe is on the margins of something that Won't get sign off. What are the telltale signs of something that you really want to scale? Could you tell us a bit about the stuff that you're most excited by or most proud of?

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Maia Reed [00:07:41]:

Yeah, well, so when it comes to our projects, we're a global business and the projects that I mostly have oversight into are going to be those regenerative and climate smart agriculture projects that are impacting our raw materials footprint. With those products, we really give our regional leads the freedom to choose the specific project, the project or MRV partner, and whatever tools that might best serve their regional and geographic needs. What helps them choose what to focus on is really three different things. So it's going to be the data that we host at a global pet care and at a global Mars level around our key emitting raw materials. So being able to have that visibility into where those hotspots are in our ingredient footprint and understanding what needs the attention to lower the footprint around is going to be one of those. The second is really leveraging existing supplier and project implementation partner relationships. If there's not a relationship there, or if it's a material that we maybe don't have so much traceability or visibility into in our value chain, we know that that's going to be a challenge to get a project going there. So sometimes the lower hanging fruit just becomes where we have the strongest relationships with our suppliers and know that collaboration is going to be feasible.

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Maia Reed [00:08:53]:

And at least the third point, which is really ease or difficulty of implementation, that doesn't always stop us, but it is certainly a consideration when it comes to scoping projects. We know that there's a lot happening in the commodity crop space. So projects around corn, wheat, soy are easier to establish right now than projects around some areas we need to focus on, which are beef, pork and other animal proteins. That doesn't, like I said, mean that we, we stop there. We do continue to pursue those projects, but we know that they may be more exp. More challenging and that, you know, we might be a first mover in that space. And so once we, you know, scope those projects and think about where we want to focus when we begin the contracting process, really one of our key considerations is always going to be the benefit that the project can bring to the farmer participating. We, you know, have a certain amount of money that we need to invest in these projects to get them going.

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Maia Reed [00:09:48]:

And we really want to ensure that for every dollar we invest in reductions, the majority of it's going back into farmers pockets. I mean, these are the folks that are on the front line of climate smart agriculture and they're the ones who are shouldering the risks associated with changing their farming practises. So they're the ones that need to be compensated and benefit the most from these projects. There are so many other holistic co benefits to ecosystems, to livelihoods, to other things on farm that come with a climate smart agriculture investment. So we try and emphasise those as well as opportunities for brand storytelling.

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Saif Hameed [00:10:20]:

And Maia, if I flip the perspective slightly and say, let's say I'm a supply chain partner to Mars, what is the best way for me to position my projects such that they could be interesting and exciting for Mars to get behind? Is there something in terms of the narrative, maybe even the data, maybe the choice of type of project? What advice would you give to suppliers that actually want to bring projects to you on how they can best get those projects through the door and get them to attract attention?

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Maia Reed [00:10:48]:

Yeah, great question. And this is where the majority of our conversation happened, is really that that alignment and that project design phase where it's, I have an idea, how do we make this happen? Or you know, conversely, Mars has an idea who can partner with us to make this happen. The coordination has to happen on a lot of different levels. So first of all we need to ensure that we have, you know, consistent volume of products that we're sourcing from that supplier and that it makes sense for us to co invest in a long term partnership with them. We need to make sure that the way that they are structuring their projects will give us data that we can ultimately ingest and use in our inventory. What we really want to see is us tracking the progress of an investment in practise change where we can understand what the baseline carbon intensity is of a material before a practise change or before an intervention, and then work on a project with a supplier, with a project partner to lower that carbon intensity, taking the delta between those two things as a reduction. If we're able to calculate it in that way, where we can show that the carbon intensity of the material has lessened, we can share those benefits with our supplier or project partner and with Mars. And we really want to see a world in which that's possible.

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Maia Reed [00:12:03]:

We don't want to take these tonnes of carbon, separate them from the material and create them as commodities in themselves. We want to show the carbon reductions linked to the material so all those along the value chain that touch that material can benefit from those low carbon assets. So really by finding that mutual benefit and aligning on Some of those accounting principles, the project design principles and ensuring longevity of the project. Can we start to get to a place where we really feel comfortable moving forward with contracting and executing a project?

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Saif Hameed [00:12:31]:

If you think about this idea of monetizing the inset along with the sale of the good, this is for many suppliers or many B2B companies, this is about moving from being a, a physical product supplier to being a solution provider as well. How big do you think that market gets? Like, is this a massive sort of stream that many companies in your value chain could actually start to move into and look to sort of monetize projects and interventions at scale in a sort of almost like a pie that is growing year on year and decade on decade and becoming bigger, moving maybe from carbon towards other benefits as well, like water and so on as well. Like what is the almost. How big do you think this gets as a market?

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Maia Reed [00:13:14]:

I think huge and folks are really starting to understand that. And we see if we just follow the dollars that investments in some of, for example, the big global grain trader companies, they're building out their carbon projects and carbon programmes at comparable rates as they're investing in the inputs that they generate, which has always been their primary business. So we're seeing a huge market for this. All of the large grain traders, large animal protein traders, most of the folks that come to are starting to enter this space and I really see, see it as a hedging move. You know, there's agriculture. Agriculture has a lot of risks, it's quite volatile. We understand that people want to mitigate that risk by ensuring that we're farming smarter, that we're getting commodities with low carbon intensities. And they're seeing this as an additional value stream where they can generate revenue through incentivizing practise change and monetizing those outcomes.

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Maia Reed [00:14:07]:

So many of our partners are a lot of those intermediaries, those traders that are responsible for moving and selling you millions of tonnes of commodities within North America and globally. And they have access to the farmers that need to make these practise changes. So by leveraging their networks that are already existing, they know that they're able to play in the space very competitively.

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Saif Hameed [00:14:28]:

And Maia, at a system level, what do you think really unlocks the growth of this space? Like, are there any enablers, any sort of system level changes, maybe policy shifts? What is it that you think would catalyse the most advancement in these sorts of projects? And even in the transaction of, I know insets is becoming a dirty word in some ways. But like the transaction of the token between them, what accelerates growth here?

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Maia Reed [00:14:55]:

Yeah, it might be a bit of a wish list in terms of what I wish were to happen, but I really think access to information is power. Right now there are so many different programmes that are going on. Farmers are being approached left, right and centre, left, right and centre of different opportunities, different ways that they can make income outside of their crop by, you know, selling or creating environmental benefits. It's hard to distil the opportunities and understand what's really going to benefit me as a farmer and what is really going to be best for the land that I farm on and, you know, the long term future of my farm and my business. So I think being able to provide better information to growers that are being engaged so that they understand what decisions they can make and can make the best decisions is going to be huge.

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Saif Hameed [00:15:43]:

Maia, on a lot of these topics you and your team have managed the sort of fine line between established guidance, whether it's greenhouse gas protocol or SVTI and a new innovation, new thinking and kind of trying to like fill the gaps with best practise and common sense. I'm sure there are a number of areas where you've done this. I mean, I think of how you address raw material co product allocation as one. I think of kind of how you balance inventory versus intervention accounting as another. Could you maybe just talk our audience through where the gaps typically are in the established guidance and what your playbook is when you need to kind of innovate through the gaps, if that makes sense.

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Maia Reed [00:16:26]:

Yeah, yeah, completely. I wish that there was a playbook for this. Unfortunately we don't really have one or we have a draught playbook that has been a draught for many years. By that I'm referring to the land sector removals guidance, which is a document that many of us have been eagerly anticipating for years, which is supposed to give information around how we should account for removals that are associated with agricultural interventions in our value chain. It's complex stuff and I'm not going to say that we have nailed it, but to your point said, we've really been trying to figure out how to navigate that grey space at Mars and there's a couple ways that we do that. The first I think is to continue staying tapped in to external networks. They have a food and agriculture working group where we get to essentially have a space with other industry peers where we noodle through these really complex issues and create when we can, an aligned perspective on how to tackle some of these gaps where Guidance hasn't yet covered how we might approach one challenge or another. So that's something that's really important, is continuing to stay in the space, stay connected, and educate ourselves about how this guidance is evolving.

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Maia Reed [00:17:35]:

Another way that we try to coordinate amongst ourselves is by creating what at Marsby call internal archetypes. So our archetypes are really instructions and criteria about what acceptable data looks like when it comes to climate projects and other carbon reduction initiatives. So on the agricultural side, we have a farm tool archetype which helps to define what do we need to understand about the methodology of a project calculator in order for those project outputs to be acceptable for us to ingest and understand that it's high quality data with integrity that meets our criteria. We have a process where we evaluate all the different firm tools that are used in all of our projects against that archetype and we get third party validation to understand, okay, we now feel comfortable moving forward with any projects that might be using that tool. Another way which is more recently created at Mars that we're trying to navigate this is essentially just by creating data templates, data templates, and pre aligning as much as we can with our different project partners on what we need and why we need it. So the what we need can be handled by our different data collection templates. This is the information that we need as an output, this is how it needs to be delivered. Here are the questions that we have around the volumes covered in the project, the different farmers engaged, the duration of the project, et cetera, and really make sure all those details are fleshed out at project inception so that there's no ambiguity moving forward, the why tends to actually be the sticking point.

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Maia Reed [00:19:07]:

And that's where some of those conversations take a really long time. Because trying to talk to folks, especially those who have previously played in the carbon offset market, who are tracking towards certain carbon accounting guidance that really isn't relevant for a company like Mars as a CPG that's looking at value chain interventions, trying to help them understand why we need the data the way that we need it, when it might not be the way that they're historically used to collecting it. And why we need things measured in terms of the carbon intensity of our materials ends up being quite a long and convoluted discussion to have. So pre aligning in that way is really, really important. And some of these tools and templates that we've created helps to foster those discussions and kind of set the boundaries about what we expect and what we would like and what we wouldn't. There has to be some flexibility in here. At the same time, it's a difficult message to deliver both to the folks on the field, to our project partners, and also to our leaders to say, we think that the way that we're approaching this challenge right now is going to work, but guidance might change. The whole environment of these projects might change when guidance is firmly published.

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Maia Reed [00:20:18]:

And, you know, we may need to change the specs of this project or how we go about accounting for removals or something or another, so that the impacts that you're seeing in the dollars per tonne of carbon, you know, that reductive KPI that we are often beholden to might change after a project is executed. So keeping open that space for grey area is not easy, but something that we really have to continue doing.

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Saif Hameed [00:20:41]:

Maia, do you find that that ambiguity is very difficult to maintain in conversations with leaders who are probably more used to financial. The inaccuracy is measured in fractions of a percentage point, whereas in the climate space, you kind of have much broader ranges. Most businesses that are newer to this journey than Mars are really struggling with how to convey the uncertainty ranges on this sort of data. Do you feel like because Mars has been doing this for some time, that's actually well understood, or are there still challenges when it comes to covering those ambiguities?

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Maia Reed [00:21:15]:

There's still challenges, yes. Yes is my short answer. There are certainly still challenges while we've been, you know, trying to set that foundation, educate our leaders, help folks understand that this is a very dynamic environment and industry. We still operate on a financial calendar. We still need to understand what our investments are going to bring us. We are still under financial scrutiny just like any other business. And so trying to justify the cost of some of these interventions is always a challenge. We do have certain dollar per tonne thresholds that we will compare project to project between divisions or between regions to get a sense of what is expected, what is a quote unquote expensive project, what is not.

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Maia Reed [00:22:03]:

But there's always exceptions, like I mentioned, some of these areas where there hasn't been much movement in the industry, like around animal proteins, those are going to be more expensive projects because we're first movers in this space. It requires a lot of coordination amongst a lot of different partners and there's just a lot of unknowns. So it will continue to be hard. It kind of goes again with the whole business case for sustainability. It's already a difficult business case to make, and more so when you have to also say Asterisk. This may all change in a few months or years time, but as much as we can just reiterate that narrative, the better.

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Saif Hameed [00:22:38]:

Maia, as you were talking about some more challenging sectors and spaces like animal proteins, something came to my mind which is as we kind of look at the emphasis on data and data exchange between businesses, my sense is that there are some geographies that are likely to suffer from that transition just because data systems are so, so, so poorly advanced or so poorly developed. Are there geographies or zones that are particularly concerning for you because they're important parts of where you source from, but the ability to kind of provide you with data, transparency, clarity and partner with you on change is much lower in those regions than others. And if so like, how would you see capability building almost at like regional level catching up? I'm originally from Pakistan and I know that a lot of the textile companies there are struggling to provide clarity upstream to apparel companies. And it's not so much that they struggle on the energy footprint within manufacturing, but they struggle to share any visibility on the cotton side upstream because they've never had to think about that. And literacy levels are low, data levels are super low. Are there geographies that are the same for you and how are you thinking about capability building when it comes to data in those areas?

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Maia Reed [00:23:51]:

Yeah, there certainly are and you nailed it. A lot of it ends up being in I suppose the Global south and in areas where we have a lot of smallholder farmers that we're working with. So when I talk to our regional leads that are in our pet Nutritia Asia business and our regional leads in our pet nutrition North America business, the projects that they're pursuing couldn't be more different. In North America they're able to plug in with a lot of existing projects with big green traders or other large CPGs to partner with. Whereas in Southeast Asia, and specifically I'm thinking of some projects that we have going on in Thailand, we have projects that are likely to deliver maybe a few thousand tonnes of reductions that are engaging a few thousand farmers in order to deliver those few thousand tonnes of reductions. So managing those several thousand farmers in hands on trainings, in going out with field extension agents with clipboards to try to understand what practise changes are happening, what's been implemented, getting folks together once a quarter, even sometimes during busy harvest seasons to talk about the changes that are being implemented and do knowledge sharing. It's so much more grassroots in a lot of ways, the management of it and has to be a lot More hands on when it comes to that. We really need to utilise sampling protocol.

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Maia Reed [00:25:07]:

We know that we aren't going to get primary data from every single farmer that's engaged. So understanding what is a reasonable sample of these farmers that we know are receiving inputs or education around practise change and are participating in these projects, that's one way that we can manage that and manage that uncertainty without the data burden becoming too onerous. The other thing which, you know, again, I'm happy to be at Mars in a company that supports this, is that we can figure it out eventually. So we know that the net impact of these projects is good. We know certain practises that are tied to either carbon reductions or, you know, water conservation or other different ecological benefits are net positive. They're not good for farmers, they're not good for yields, they're not good for the environment. So we're okay to keep investing in those projects as we figure out better ways to consolidate and report out on our data and continue those going because they're supporting livelihoods, they're supporting a healthy planet, and ultimately they're tracking towards what our overall goals are.

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Saif Hameed [00:26:10]:

Maia, I'm guessing that collaboration with your peers is also one tool in the toolbox to help drive change in many of these geographies. And more generally, when we talk about the tools, the templates, the data that Mars has available when it's working with its own supply chain, to what extent do you kind of look to make that available to other companies that might be buying from the same supply chain? Where do you draw the line? Where do you think about what is a strategic set of IP that you don't want to share versus actually something where sharing it enables everyone to be more successful and that benefits Mars as well. Is that always a case by case basis or are there some general principles?

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Maia Reed [00:26:51]:

Yeah, it's a good question. And I think right now we're very much in the mode of building the plane as we're flying it. Once we have a commercial airliner, then I think we'll feel a little bit better putting it out there and sharing our experience and our learnings and challenges with others. We really acknowledge, especially the responsibility that is that comes with being a first mover in the space and that if we're going to learn things, if we're going to go through the struggle of navigating the ambiguity and potentially figuring out a solution that works and is scalable, it's our responsibility to share that. It's our responsibility to talk to others about what works and what doesn't and to get partnerships going so that all can benefit. So we're not at that point yet where we have materials or necessarily approaches we can share. Like I said, we're part of a lot of industry consortiums where those conversations are happening. And so that's often where we will share our perspective.

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Maia Reed [00:27:48]:

And even though there might not be a lot of necessarily learning from others, sometimes it is a lot of folks learning from Mars as a more sophisticated player in the space, we're still willing and eager to participate in those forums. So that's one thing partnership wise. We're always looking for partners that we can co invest with that are eager and excited to make these value chain investments with us. One of the reasons for that, especially with the pet care business, is because often what we're purchasing at Mars aren't full commodities. And we could get in together to both proportionately split the cost of an investment and to proportionately split the outcomes and the carbon reductions that are achieved by way of that investment. That world doesn't yet exist. And even if it did exist and we had access to that information, not every buyer of these other co products is really interested in putting millions of dollars towards carbon reduction for their products. So I'd love to see a world where that can happen and where we can have those collaborations.

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Maia Reed [00:28:50]:

We are starting some of those in earnest. There needs to be more collaboration and partnership in this space, really, so that we can scale this work and get more things done.

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Saif Hameed [00:28:58]:

Maia, just taking that a bit further in terms of collaboration and also innovation, with your vantage point where you're sort of maintaining the emissions factor library, you're probably able to see where there are interesting interventions that could really move the needle, where there may be areas in the value chain that are underserved. From an innovation perspective, if you were an innovator trying to, let's say, pitch a new concept to Mars, whether it's, let's say packaging, whether it's something on the raw material or ingredient side, or even logistics. What are the areas that you would actually suggest to innovators and entrepreneurs to actually get involved? Because there's a white space that more work is needed. Are there any sort of one or two areas you would point people towards?

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Maia Reed [00:29:42]:

Yeah, great question. I think one of our most powerful but sometimes least discussed levers when it comes to carbon reductions is really in our product reformulation and pursuing novel ingredients which include alternate proteins as well. We have a very active team in product innovation that's looking at these different materials Looking at what substitutions we can make for lower carbon materials, looking at how we can deliver the same nutritional value, nutritional profile for different pet care products specifically and substitute some of our more high intensity proteins for lower intensity proteins. So that's an area where there is a lot of innovation. We are fielding lots of different potential investment opportunities, lots of different suppliers, some that have, you know, established up and running plants that are, you know, creating different alternate proteins, some that haven't yet broken ground in a facility and are looking for investors so that they know that their products will have a home when they get to full capacity. But our R D team is really, really working in the space and very, very agile. It's a benefit of us working in the pet care business also, I will say is that, you know, in, in previous roles and other CPGs, a new product reformulation takes years and years of testing to make sure that consumer palates, you know, are either the, the change isn't, doesn't affect the taste of the product or it's, you know, a better tasting product that it, you know, translates well, reads well with people. When it comes with pet care, usually what we're formulating for is nutrition.

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Maia Reed [00:31:18]:

That's our first and foremost thing, is to provide great nutrition to pets. But that means that there's some flexibility in how we formulate our products to achieve those same nutritional specs. That flexibility allows us to pursue these really interesting avenues with different ingredients or swapping out a higher ingredient for a lower ingredient. Asking suppliers, do you have LCAs that might be available so that we can understand what their specific footprint is and move from a higher carbon intensity supplier to one providing a lower carbon intensity product. But yeah, I would say the opportunity in new materials innovation for alternative proteins is really interesting. I wouldn't say it's a white space right now because there's quite a few new entrants, but it's one that I'm eagerly watching.

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Saif Hameed [00:31:58]:

Yeah, I think that makes two of us. Maia, I think what's particularly exciting is to see the demand for alternative proteins at scale because from what I hear from others in the industry, there's a lot of excitement, there's a lot of demand. The suppliers that can meet demand at the kind of scale that a large business like Mars would be looking for is still quite limited. Certainly a space to watch. Maia, really enjoyed this conversation. As we, as we sort of wind up with our last question, we usually ask for some advice for our community. And so our listeners are typically all sustainability professionals working in consumer businesses. Is there Any advice that you would share with them, maybe when it comes to how they think about their data or how.

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Saif Hameed [00:32:39]:

When it comes to how they think about generating insights from the data or really anything else that has been a learning for you in your time at Mars?

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Maia Reed [00:32:46]:

I was reflecting on this and I think one thing that's funny about the role I've ended up in is that it's really defined by grey area. There is so much ambiguity, as we've discussed already. There's so much uncertainty around this area. And if you were to ask me five, ten years ago the standard interview question, what is your greatest weakness? It would probably be does not deal well with ambiguity. That is probably how I would respond. I'm somebody that likes an answer. I love math because there's only one right answer most of the time. But this is a really challenging space to be in because it's dynamic and it's always changing.

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Maia Reed [00:33:20]:

So as opposed to advice about something specific, I think one thing that I heard that really has helped me to navigate that ambiguity and that uncertainty is someone told me to be married to the problem and not the solution. You know, if you're dedicated to decarbonizing supply chains, to be successful you need to be agnostic about the how about, how do we achieve this decarbonization and be open to new solutions and continue moving forward with whatever might be shown to work? At the end of the day, I don't care what the solution is, but we need to stay open to that whole portfolio of potential different solutions, keep investing in this menu of different carbon reduction activities and kind of hope and be open to be proven wrong so that as we close doors, we continue opening and expanding the scale of the solutions that are working so we can ultimately meet our goals and move the needle.

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Saif Hameed [00:34:10]:

Yeah, I agree, Maia. Just to add on to that, I think that the community of people that are working on climate and the environment is still small enough that we shouldn't be making camps amongst ourselves and actually kind of end up with all these fragmentations. I've always found that the worst thing is sort of being attacked from the left, which is like the least forgiving. When environmentalists attack each other, that's always the most bitter kind of feuded animosity. I worked on an ocean plastic piece of work once while I was at McKinsey and I remember we, at some point at the end of the study, we had a list of complaints from NGOs basically criticising the findings. And it was because I think we were advocating waste to energy as part of the solution and waste energy was not not pure enough to be part of the answer for a lot of the nonprofits that we spoke with. So I think there's a lot more value in being open to a range of solutions, all being part of the answer here. And at least being married to the problem allows you to keep that open perspective.

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Saif Hameed [00:35:08]:

So really appreciate that. Maia, thank you so much for your time with us. This has been such a fun conversation. So many bases covered. I can't wait till our next chat. I'm sure it'll be on a stage somewhere at some point. Maybe back in Minneapolis next year, who knows? But in the meantime, have a great day and a great weekend as well. And excited to catch up soon.

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Maia Reed [00:35:30]:

Appreciate it. Thanks so much.

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Saif Hameed [00:35:32]:

Take care.

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